Comments on: An argument for infant baptism? http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/ Thu, 09 Sep 2010 03:28:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: Chris S. http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44012 Chris S. Wed, 17 May 2006 20:37:34 +0000 http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44012 Thomas, It was so nice of you to stop by and respond to my post. In particular, I am glad you took the time to read the entire thread and gain a thorough understanding of the topic at hand. As you have so eloquently surmised, the purpose of this post was to "test the waters," as it were, to the idea of introducing the doctrine of secret infant baptisms into the LDS church. Despite the explicit condemnation of the practice of infant baptism in LDS scripture, I still feel there has to be a place for it somewhere. I suppose I could wander the NICU at night throwing water around, gaining new converts left and right. Brilliant! Why hadn't I thought of this sooner? The real secret to building a multinational religion is to get them before they know what hit 'em and worry about the technical details (like faith and repentance) later. Thomas,

It was so nice of you to stop by and respond to my post. In particular, I am glad you took the time to read the entire thread and gain a thorough understanding of the topic at hand. As you have so eloquently surmised, the purpose of this post was to “test the waters,” as it were, to the idea of introducing the doctrine of secret infant baptisms into the LDS church. Despite the explicit condemnation of the practice of infant baptism in LDS scripture, I still feel there has to be a place for it somewhere. I suppose I could wander the NICU at night throwing water around, gaining new converts left and right. Brilliant! Why hadn’t I thought of this sooner? The real secret to building a multinational religion is to get them before they know what hit ‘em and worry about the technical details (like faith and repentance) later.

]]> By: J. Stapley http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44011 J. Stapley Wed, 17 May 2006 20:21:15 +0000 http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44011 I had heard that the current Pope had brought some scholars together on the subject of Limbo, but I hadn't heard whether anything had been anounced. I had heard that the current Pope had brought some scholars together on the subject of Limbo, but I hadn’t heard whether anything had been anounced.

]]> By: LisaB http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44010 LisaB Wed, 17 May 2006 19:09:54 +0000 http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44010 This is a little OT, but a Catholic friend of mine is waiting to have her baby twins baptized til she can return to her home congregation MONTHS after the births of her children. She said current Catholic belief (and the current pope specifically) has not supported the doctrine of the necessity of infant baptism, and particularly the idea of limbo for unbaptized infants. She's not worried. I know, different if their lives were actually at stake. But it was an interesting conversation. This is a little OT, but a Catholic friend of mine is waiting to have her baby twins baptized til she can return to her home congregation MONTHS after the births of her children. She said current Catholic belief (and the current pope specifically) has not supported the doctrine of the necessity of infant baptism, and particularly the idea of limbo for unbaptized infants. She’s not worried. I know, different if their lives were actually at stake. But it was an interesting conversation.

]]> By: J. Stapley http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44009 J. Stapley Wed, 17 May 2006 18:35:48 +0000 http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44009 Not sure what you are asking here, Thomas. The question was if, as a Mormon, a (Catholic) person asked you to baptize their baby for them. According to the Catholic catochism, in such exigent circumstances, anyone can baptize the baby. As to your experience, you obviously have some unresolved issues. I hope things work out for you. Not sure what you are asking here, Thomas. The question was if, as a Mormon, a (Catholic) person asked you to baptize their baby for them. According to the Catholic catochism, in such exigent circumstances, anyone can baptize the baby.

As to your experience, you obviously have some unresolved issues. I hope things work out for you.

]]> By: Thomas Hobbes http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44008 Thomas Hobbes Wed, 17 May 2006 18:01:11 +0000 http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44008 I am assuming that you would only be baptizing, in this case, Mormon babies, right? In that case, more power to you. However, if you were to, say, baptize my son on his deathbed without my consent (because you'd never get it), then I think we would have some problems. Just after the birth of my son, my wife briefly lost her way and was converted to Mormonism. She was baptized in secret, etc, etc. Didn't tell me. It's a good thing that your organization has rules prohibiting the baptism of children under 8 because she would have most definately baptized him without my consent (see what zeal can do?). If that were the case, I would never have left her and she would have been left defenseless against Mormon dogma, or doxa as we'll call it. However, thanks to your rules, I was able to stay and help her see episteme, if you will. So, thanks Mr. Smith for having the foresight (prophet and all that he is) in making your baptizmal rules. I am assuming that you would only be baptizing, in this case, Mormon babies, right? In that case, more power to you. However, if you were to, say, baptize my son on his deathbed without my consent (because you’d never get it), then I think we would have some problems. Just after the birth of my son, my wife briefly lost her way and was converted to Mormonism. She was baptized in secret, etc, etc. Didn’t tell me. It’s a good thing that your organization has rules prohibiting the baptism of children under 8 because she would have most definately baptized him without my consent (see what zeal can do?). If that were the case, I would never have left her and she would have been left defenseless against Mormon dogma, or doxa as we’ll call it. However, thanks to your rules, I was able to stay and help her see episteme, if you will. So, thanks Mr. Smith for having the foresight (prophet and all that he is) in making your baptizmal rules.

]]> By: AlexG http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44007 AlexG Thu, 20 Apr 2006 07:12:24 +0000 http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44007 I do not think that there is a valid argument for baptising an infant, whatever the circumpstance is. I understand the need for comforting the family, but the real question is: would I perform an ordinance that has received a strong condemnation from a prophet? If other denominations feel it is OK, it is fine with me, yet I would not participate. In an extreme analogy, would we 'bless' some water and sprinkle over a house to make it a 'sacred haven'? I feel this issue is more to do with bowing to pressures, however in distress, of men rather than following the laws of God. I do not think that there is a valid argument for baptising an infant, whatever the circumpstance is. I understand the need for comforting the family, but the real question is: would I perform an ordinance that has received a strong condemnation from a prophet? If other denominations feel it is OK, it is fine with me, yet I would not participate. In an extreme analogy, would we ‘bless’ some water and sprinkle over a house to make it a ‘sacred haven’? I feel this issue is more to do with bowing to pressures, however in distress, of men rather than following the laws of God.

]]> By: Matt Evans http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44006 Matt Evans Wed, 12 Apr 2006 02:25:06 +0000 http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44006 Interesting predicament, Craig. I'm quite surprised by the number of people who would use their priesthood in this way. To me baptizing an infant would clearly be using the Lord's name in vain, unless the baptism omits God's name and state's that it's done by authority of the State Board of Health, Medical Licensing Division. Several commenters suggested that the sin of teaching repugnant doctrines was overcome by the injunction to comfort those in need of comfort, but there are obviously many ways to comfort grieving parents that don't require breaking one of the first commandments. I'm interested to know how many commenters would smoke a cigarette or (insert other commandment here) because it would make the parents feel better. That would be interesting. It also seems like the parents would be completely understanding when someone explains they don't have the authority to perform protestant Christian ordinances. The best solution would be to offer to give the child a true blessing by the authority and power of the Lord Jesus Christ. Interesting predicament, Craig.

I’m quite surprised by the number of people who would use their priesthood in this way. To me baptizing an infant would clearly be using the Lord’s name in vain, unless the baptism omits God’s name and state’s that it’s done by authority of the State Board of Health, Medical Licensing Division.

Several commenters suggested that the sin of teaching repugnant doctrines was overcome by the injunction to comfort those in need of comfort, but there are obviously many ways to comfort grieving parents that don’t require breaking one of the first commandments. I’m interested to know how many commenters would smoke a cigarette or (insert other commandment here) because it would make the parents feel better. That would be interesting.

It also seems like the parents would be completely understanding when someone explains they don’t have the authority to perform protestant Christian ordinances.

The best solution would be to offer to give the child a true blessing by the authority and power of the Lord Jesus Christ.

]]> By: Michael http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44005 Michael Wed, 05 Apr 2006 03:35:33 +0000 http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44005 Baptism is for those able to make the promise with God. Baptisms for the dead are performed for those who never had the chance to be baptised. They still have their agency on whether or not to accept the baptismal covanants. Why would my child be punished for my sins? God is just and the atonement of Jesus Christ covers children that die in infancy. If you have ever looked into an infants eyes do you honestly think that they are evil and should be sent to hell? I dont think so any way. I know that the Lord is merciful. According to mark 10:13-16, matt 19:13-15 little children go to heaven. In acts 8:12 MEN and WOMEN were baptized. No children were mentioned. 1 corinthian 7:14- Little children are holy, being sanctified through the atonement of Jesus Christ. In Chapter 18 verses 3 and 4 of Matthew it says that we need to be converted as a child and the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. The death of our Savior is eternal. I am greatfull for it. I turn to him everyday and I know that through faith all can gain a testimony of these things. To baptize infants is a sign of lack of understanding of the atonement. Baptism is for those able to make the promise with God. Baptisms for the dead are performed for those who never had the chance to be baptised. They still have their agency on whether or not to accept the baptismal covanants. Why would my child be punished for my sins? God is just and the atonement of Jesus Christ covers children that die in infancy. If you have ever looked into an infants eyes do you honestly think that they are evil and should be sent to hell? I dont think so any way. I know that the Lord is merciful. According to mark 10:13-16, matt 19:13-15 little children go to heaven. In acts 8:12 MEN and WOMEN were baptized. No children were mentioned. 1 corinthian 7:14- Little children are holy, being sanctified through the atonement of Jesus Christ. In Chapter 18 verses 3 and 4 of Matthew it says that we need to be converted as a child and the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. The death of our Savior is eternal. I am greatfull for it. I turn to him everyday and I know that through faith all can gain a testimony of these things. To baptize infants is a sign of lack of understanding of the atonement.

]]> By: Steve H http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44004 Steve H Wed, 29 Mar 2006 01:26:11 +0000 http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44004 While I can see how a desire to comfort the family might come from charitable impulses, I can't see how performing the baptism would really do anything good in the final analysis. What happens when someone tries to teach them the truth. They have this experience to look back on where a priesthood holder agreed to baptise their child. As Stephen points out, the only reason people would be coming to a doctor to do this would be out of a yearning for authority. While we hold authority, it would be counter-productive to use it in a way that taught false principles. As I see it, as actual priesthood holders, it is our responsibility to only use that authority in authentic ways. Again, while I see the impulse to comfort as good, I wonder, if a dying person needed comfort, and was a smoker, I would certainly be willing to let them smoke. I might even lean out the door and ask if anyone had a cigarette--though it would be a dilemma for me. If, however, the person asked me to participate--hates to smoke alone--no, I don't think so. And I don't think most of us would go there. It seems to me that baptising children is farther up on the list of abominations (the WoW never uses the word) than a lot of things we would never do. While I can see how a desire to comfort the family might come from charitable impulses, I can’t see how performing the baptism would really do anything good in the final analysis. What happens when someone tries to teach them the truth. They have this experience to look back on where a priesthood holder agreed to baptise their child.
As Stephen points out, the only reason people would be coming to a doctor to do this would be out of a yearning for authority. While we hold authority, it would be counter-productive to use it in a way that taught false principles. As I see it, as actual priesthood holders, it is our responsibility to only use that authority in authentic ways.
Again, while I see the impulse to comfort as good, I wonder, if a dying person needed comfort, and was a smoker, I would certainly be willing to let them smoke. I might even lean out the door and ask if anyone had a cigarette–though it would be a dilemma for me. If, however, the person asked me to participate–hates to smoke alone–no, I don’t think so. And I don’t think most of us would go there. It seems to me that baptising children is farther up on the list of abominations (the WoW never uses the word) than a lot of things we would never do.

]]> By: Stephen M (Ethesis) http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44003 Stephen M (Ethesis) Sun, 26 Mar 2006 22:22:39 +0000 http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/an-argument-for-infant-baptism/#comment-44003 <em>Chris S.</em> if you have any other comments, feel free to drop me an e-mail. Chris S. if you have any other comments, feel free to drop me an e-mail.

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