Brigham on spirit
Due to the explicit discourse of Joseph Smith, most frequently called the King Follet Discourse, many Latter-day saints believe that the spirit and mind of man is eternal and can never be created or destroyed. While he had preached this concept five years earlier, there was a significant diversity of thought post-martyrdom on the topic. Perhaps the two most identifiable ideologies were those of Orson Pratt (see here) and Brigham Young. This post will deal with Brigham’s thoughts on spirit creation from the perspective of a unique aspect of his thought: spirit destruction.
Perhaps as one of the many cats he decided to loose from the bag, Brigham frequently preached on the creation and destruction of the soul. In 1853 he stated:
Every kingdom will be blotted out of existence, except the one whose ruling spirit is the Holy Ghost, and whose king is the Lord. The Lord said to Jeremiah the Prophet, “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hands of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.” The clay that marred in the potter’s hands was thrown back into the unprepared portion, to be prepared over again. So it will be with every wicked man and woman, and every wicked nation, kingdom, and government upon earth, sooner or later; they will be thrown back to the native element from which they originated, to be worked over again, and be prepared to enjoy some sort of a kingdom. (1)
And later that year:
Jesus says, he will DESTROY death and him that hath the power of it. What can you make of this but decomposition, the returning of the organized particles to their native element, after suffering the wrath of God until the time appointed. That appears a mystery, but the principle has been in existence from all eternity, only it is something you have not known or thought of. When the elements in an organized form do not fill the end of their creation, they are thrown back again, like brother Kimball’s old pottery ware, to be ground up, and made over again. All I have to say about it is what Jesus says—I will destroy Death, and him that hath the power of it, which is the devil. And if he ever makes “a full end of the wicked,” what else can he do than entirely disorganize them, and reduce them to their native element? Here are some of the mysteries of the kingdom. (2)
Brigham used the metaphore of pottery for both spirit and physical creation. Brigham believed in a spirit element that was organized into a conscious spirit. If this soul never accepted Christ, the element would not be wasted, but reused in the formation of another soul. Obviously, for Brigham, the mind was not eternal:
Christ will never cease the warfare, until he destroys death and him that hath the power of it. Every possession and object of affection will be taken from those who forsake the truth, and their identity and existence will eventually cease. “That is strange doctrine.” No matter, they have not an object which they can place their hands or affections upon, but what will vanish and pass away. That is the course and will be the tendency of every man and woman, when they decided to leave this kingdom. (3)
The eternal fate of those who rebelled is not certain in Brigham’s thought, but he does show that their continued existence is a function of grace:
When there was rebellion in heaven, judgment was laid to the line and righteousness to the plummet, and the evil were cast out. Yet there was a portion of grace allotted to those rebellious characters, or they would have been sent to their native element. (4)
These are a few examples of many in which Brigham preached on the subject of spirit destruction (5). He continued to preach on the matter until his death.
_______________
- JD 2:124
- JD 1:275-276
- JD 4:32, emphasis added; see also 7:57-58 & 18:234
- JD 3:256
- Other examples include JD 3:203, 4:54, 5:54, 6:346, 7:276, 7:287, 8:29, 9:149-150, 13:316-317 & The Office Journal of President Brigham Young, 1858-1863, Book D, pg. 35.
I sort have assumed that Brigham was a spirit atomist of sorts too. I get the sense though that he did not agree with Orson’s variety of spirit atomism where every particle is a free thinking individual until it melds with a higher union (or whatever). Rather, it seems like Brigham is sort of an emergentist who believed that God puts non-living and non-free-willed spirit atoms together and a mind emerges from the parts. (Perhaps from a spirit brain — sort of like what folks like Blake assume happens with physical brains.) Is that the sense you get from your readings too?
Comment by Geoff J — 2/14/2007 @ 1:40 am
Interesting quotes, I had never seen them before.
When this is compared with the analogy of the ring that Joseph used, I wonder what Joseph would say about our flesh and bone bodies. Certainly they had a beginning at physical birth. They will have another sort of beginning at the resurrection. If they have a beginning – even at the resurrection, would Joseph have to conclude that our resurrected bodies will have an end? Or can his analogy of a ring only be taken so far?
Comment by Eric — 2/14/2007 @ 8:45 am
Geoff, yeah, that is pretty much how I see Brigham thinking.
I think Joseph’s use of the ring simply as he stated, in relation to our spirits and minds. The ring analogy is fairly flawed, but it is important in understanding Joseph.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/14/2007 @ 10:21 am
The ring analogy is fairly flawed
Actually, we don’t know if the ring analogy is flawed or not. It is possible that it is completely accurate. We are talking about an infinity of time after all.
Comment by Geoff J — 2/14/2007 @ 11:24 am
Actually if there is an eternal round then the ring analogy is quite apt. So long as one doesn’t take it as eternal recurrence of the same ala the Stoics.
Comment by Clark — 2/14/2007 @ 12:13 pm
I guess, Clark, it depends on what portion of the analogy we are talking about. If you cut the ring it has a beginning and an end. I’m not sure that is valid when projected on everything.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/14/2007 @ 12:25 pm
Clark, my point is that we can’t rule out a true eternal recurrence model a la the Stoics. Joseph’s statements certainly line up with that well. Besides, I am not convinced that an infinite memory is possible (storage space problems) so if there is a loop as Joseph indicatedin the ring analogy perhaps the “restart” for any given being is beyond storable memory anyway…
(Hehe — how’s that for speculation?)
Comment by Geoff J — 2/14/2007 @ 12:31 pm
If this soul never excepted Christ, the element would not be wasted,
J., I just finished giving you a hard time at BCC for pulling this same grammatical stunt. What’s going on with you brother? Have you been hittin’ the hash or something?
/Somethings really wrong when the prophet advocates “excepting Christ”
Comment by and by — 2/14/2007 @ 12:48 pm
and by, I am a notoriously poor copy editor. I have fixed the typo.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/14/2007 @ 12:52 pm
From the first quotes given, there is,it seems a potential for a Harmony of sorts between BY and JS. The “native element” may simply be the spirit or intelligence of man. (depending on your view of it.)
The second set are more difficult to harmonize. I think such a belief leaves little difference between our beliefs and ex nihlio creation.
Comment by Matt W. — 2/14/2007 @ 12:59 pm
Matt, I think if you read all the quotes (including those in fn5) you wouldn’t say that. Moreover, what about the eternality of the mind (aka spirit)?
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/14/2007 @ 1:00 pm
J. Are you disagreeing that “native element” can mean the spirit or intelligence of man, or are you disagreeing that creation of the mind of man from baser elements is practically creation ex nihlio?
Not sure what you mean…
Comment by Matt W. — 2/14/2007 @ 1:14 pm
No, I am saying that you are conflating words. Brigham clearly believed in eternal physical element and eternal spirit element. He believed God takes lifeless spirit element and forms it into a spirit being. (now Orson believed that the element did have life, but we know how Brigham felt about that). I reject that Brigham thought intelligence and spirit element were the same, see for example:
or:
You are trying to get Brigham to say something that he isn’t. You say that there is a harmony of sort to be made with JS, and I am saying that you are mistaken. Joseph was unequivocal that the mind is eternal. BY disagreed.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/14/2007 @ 1:37 pm
Ok, I am not trying to argue for a harmony really, just noting that the first quotes were able to be harmonized, while the latter quotes were not. Since the latter quotes are not able to be harmonized, there is definitely a difference in opinion. Personally, what that difference means, I can not say. What are you trying to say by noting this difference in BY?
As I see it, the options are:
1. BY was wrong.
2. Joseph was wrong.
3. Both were wrong.
4. Neither were wrong.
It does not seem that number four is really a viable option (which was the point I failed to make.), and if we judge by popular Mormonism (whatever that is), it seems #3 is the correct answer. (Popular Mormonism being the Intelligence Spirit divide, in a simblance of the pratt or Young model, but reaching back to the Smith Model in such a way as to make the difference between an intelligence and a spirit minimal if not almost non-existant.)
Anyway, my other point was more to the matter that, if BY was correct and we were in fact at one point put together by our Heavenly Father from what is pretty much chaos, then what is the difference, as to questions like the Problem of Evil, between our stance and the ex nihlio?
Comment by Matt W. — 2/14/2007 @ 2:09 pm
I should add I am thinking about the “beginning”, whereas you are mainly focusing on the “end”. I think that may effect things.
Comment by Matt W. — 2/14/2007 @ 2:10 pm
if BY was correct and we were in fact at one point put together by our Heavenly Father from what is pretty much chaos, then what is the difference, as to questions like the Problem of Evil, between our stance and the ex nihlio?
Exactly.
And I am not so sure that the tripartite existence is all that popular Mormon. BRM and JFSII certainly didn’t buy into it, and I can’t think of anyone else who has.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/14/2007 @ 2:14 pm
Is it not our understanding that the earth was created out of materials that already existed and thus was not created ex nihlio? And that at some level that lets God off the hook for being the source of natural evil? Why would we then hold some different standard regarding the organizing of spirits? If they were organized out of materials that already existed does this not at some level still blast ex nihlio in regards to ourselves?
Comment by Eric — 2/14/2007 @ 2:40 pm
J. I honestly thought BRM and JFSII were fans of the intelligence spirit divide. I guess I’ve sme homework to do. Also, is BRM and JFSII really the source still for popular mormonism, or has it moved to Gospel Principles and the Missionary manual (whether old or new.)
Eric: This issue is that if at one point, we were not independently thinking beings at all, and God manufactured us in some way which made us independantly thinking beings, then God had the ability to manufacture us in a different way and our ability to think, and thus do evil at all, goes back to being God’s fault, as we could not have done evil if we did not independantly think.
There is a certain scripture, however, somewhere, which notes that the elements always obey God, whereas man does not. I wonder how this affects our opinon of what is and what is not correct?
Comment by Matt W. — 2/14/2007 @ 3:41 pm
Eric, yep, just as we can’t be held responsible for some things do to physiology, if our spirit/identity were also created we could blame the creation or creator for defects.
Matt, nope, those guys were definitely not in the tripartite existence camp. They are the last Church authorities to talk about it, if I am not mistaken. I would be amazed if the Missionary manual or Gospel Principles said anything on the matter. As we discussed on the BCC thread linked to in the original post, some commentators (e.g., JFM) have also promoted non-tripartite existence.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/14/2007 @ 4:21 pm
J.
Just for future clarification, you are saying that a requirement for tripartite is an independent mind and will prior to a transition similar to spirit birth. Is that a fair partial definition?
Comment by Eric — 2/14/2007 @ 5:03 pm
Also, if God made the world out of elements that already existed could he have not made it better such that natural disasters would not occur? How is this different?
Comment by Eric Nielson — 2/14/2007 @ 5:05 pm
I think I would define the tripartite existence as having a mind/will/identity (of some sort or another) which recieves a spirit body (made up of spirit element) and ultimately a physical body (made of physical element). Young and Pratt (and JFS and BRM) did not believe in the first step of this process. That said, they all had different takes on it, to be sure.
Your second question is probably fit for another thread (I would check out clark’s reviews of Ostler). I see it as this: The elements and chaos exist independent of God. If we are to become like God, we have to learn how to live in a chaotic system as well.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/14/2007 @ 5:12 pm
The Last time the tripartite existence was taught by correlation appears to be in Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee
(Chapter 2: Who Am I?)
Not sure as to the significance of that however..
Comment by Matt W. — 2/14/2007 @ 5:30 pm
I’ll have to look into Harold B. Lee a little closer to parse what he is saying. Right now I am not ready to accept that he was talking about tripartite existence. McConkie et al. used spirit element and intelligence synonymously. Lee, most likely in my opinion, was saying that spirits are made out of intelligence (aka spirit matter).
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/14/2007 @ 5:38 pm
The ex nihilo comparison with Brigham’s model (and apparently the model BRM and JSFII adopted too) could be avoided if we assume that minds emerged from the spirit stuff (hardware) and then those emergent minds exercised downward causation on the hardware as free-willed consciousnesses. That approach at least relieves God responsibility for human wickedness.
Comment by Geoff J — 2/14/2007 @ 5:48 pm
Very interesting topic. It calls my attention that when teaching about spirit destruction, Brigham and Heber C. Kimball didn’t consider ressurrection as a universal step in the plan of salvation:
At the same time, the destruction of the spirit would not be an absolute end to one’s eternal progression, since a new organization would follow:
Comment by Antonio Teixeira — 2/14/2007 @ 6:29 pm
Antonio, while H.C. Kimball is known to have made some comments regarding Multiple Mortal Probations, you’re hard pressed to find anything from Brigham. He preached repeatedly about spirit element and resurrection, often together. Brigham was explicit that only those who did not accept a kingdom (i.e., telestial) were destroyed. Their element was to be reused and not wasted.
Joseph (and the revelation in D&C 88) is rather explicit to the contrary, however.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/14/2007 @ 6:36 pm
No problem J. I just thought there might be some parallels between the creation of the earth and the creation of spirits.
Thanks for providing a basic definition of what a tripartite model means – that clears up some of the previous discussions we have had.
Comment by Eric Nielson — 2/14/2007 @ 8:29 pm
I went back to it, to get the full quote and reference. here:
Address at the funeral of Edwin Marcellus Clark, 5 Apr. 1955, Harold Bingham Lee Addresses (1939–73), Historical Department Archives, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 11.
And I am still wondering which of the four premises in my comment #14 you would say is your perspeciver. I am guessing you are in category #1…
Comment by Matt W. — 2/15/2007 @ 1:39 pm
Matt, I am definitely in the Joseph camp that Spirits and minds are not created.
I am fairly certain that Lee is in the same camp as McConkie. I went through and couldn’t find any explicit description by Lee on his views, but he was fairly close to McConkie. McConkie wrote in MoDoc (under “Intelligence”):
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/15/2007 @ 2:04 pm
J. the Tripartite camp, as you define it, seems to be a subset of the Joseph Camp. Is that a fair statement on my part of your beliefs?
Also, is there a BFM or JFSII statement you are aware of that opines that there is no mind to intelligence or spirit element? I think that is really what is at the crux of my confusion, regaridng them. Are we assuming they are founded on BY, or do we have evidence which further links them?
And, as always, thanks for your interaction.
Comment by Matt W. — 2/15/2007 @ 2:30 pm
Matt, well, B.H. Roberts developed the tripartite model in order to synthesize Joseph and Brigham. I guess you could say that it is related to both, but I would say that it is very different. It asserts something unique: a pre-spirit mind. I think that makes it a model unto itself.
Orson Pratt believed that spirit element had a mind. His views were largely rejected.
McConkie elsewhere in MoDoc stated:
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/15/2007 @ 2:52 pm
J. I am trying to grasp the differences in the models.
‘The following are my understanding of your understanding of the models, thus I provide no sighted references, though that would be something I’d love to add at a later date.
Joseph Model: Spirits have always existed as spirits, were never anything but spirits and always had the capacity to choose. How we are Spirit Children of our Heavenly Father is not addressed. Perhaps adoption? (I need to research this.) There is no difference between intelligence and spirit.
Roberts Model: Spirits have not always been spirits, they were once intelligences. These Intelligences though, were very similar to spirits in that they were a solitary being, and that being was the precursor to the spirt, and may had capacity to choose of itself. The intelligence became the spirit when it was begotten by our Heavenly Parents. The method of “begetting” is up for debate. The difference between an intelligence and a spirit is that a spirit is in the form and likeness of what it will physically become, and the intelligence is without form or likeness.
Pratt Model: Spirits have not always been spirits, they were once bits of matter called intelligence. This matter was similar to atoms, in that these particals were independent beings, which united together formed the spirt, and these “spirit atoms” may have had capacity to choose of themselves. these atoms became the spirit when it was begotten by our Heavenly Parents. The method of “begetting” is up for debate.
Brigham Model: Spirits have not always been spirits, they were once bits of matter called intelligence. This matter was similar to atoms, in that these particals were independent particles, which united together formed the spirt, and these “spirit atoms” did not have any capacity to choose of themselves. These atoms became the spirit when it was begotten by our Heavenly Parents. The method of “begetting” is up for debate.
Is that about correct?
Now, back to the question of what is the Popular Mormon view, the more I look at books, the more it seems that this answer is elusive. TTTF doesn’t seem to intentionally avoid this question, but yet it does provide no answer, whether under agency, plan of salvation, spirit or creation. (which were the closest relevant topics I could find within) Gospel Principles comes a little closer, by saying that we were “begotten children of HF”, quoting the 1909 proclamation as the relevant source. Looking at the 1909 proclamation in full, it seems the following is where the Jospeh Model finds problems: “The creation was twofold—first spiritual, secondly temporal…” More importantly, this is founded the ideas in Moses 3:4–7. I wonder if this is the cause for the Brigham, Roberts, and Pratt Models.
I think I probably fall into the Roberts Model (as I understand it) at the moment, as I too have trouble harmonizing the Joseph Model (as I understand it) with the two-fold creation. I see the Roberts Model more as an attempt to harmonize the KFD with Moses 3:4-7 than I do as it attempting to Harmonize Joseph and Brigham.
But this may only be because I’ve never read Roberts, and thus have no idea as to what I am talking about.
Comment by Matt W. — 2/15/2007 @ 4:48 pm
I would make the following changes:
Roberts coined a new term “intelligencies” for the pre-spirit entities.
Brigham (and off the top of my head, Orson) didn’t call spirit element “intelligence,” that seems to be a BRMism (at least off the top of my head).
I think Brigham and Pratt were fairly wedded to vivaporous spirit birth.
For thoughts on Joseph and spirit birth, see here.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/15/2007 @ 5:01 pm
As to the two-fold creation, I would recomend Oster’s “The Idea of Preexistence in Mormon Thought” in Dialogue. Anyway, remember that Moses was recieved in 1830 while Abraham is from 1842 (see Abraham 3:18). There is definately an increase in light between those two periods.
I think the reticence of folks to accept the tripartite existence is because there is absolutely no revelatory or scriptural support for it. It is a “fix,” for those that see a problem.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/15/2007 @ 5:07 pm
Hey Matt,
See this post for more on this subject and some relevant Orson Pratt quotes. It seems that J is right that Orson referred to spirit particles but didn’t call them “intelligences”.
I agree with J also that viviparous birth wasn’t really in question for Orson or Brigham.
The last thing to point out is that in Orson’s model each independent particle chose to join a greater whole. Upon doing so the individual will became one with the higher union and a new unified being arose from that unity of beings. The problem of course with the OP model is that taken to the extreme we must face the Borg issue if we are to become one with God — not an enticing prospect.
The Brigham model has the particles as nothing more than hardware that is formed in the Celestial womb and as I understand it, a consciousness arises from the new spirit brain or whatever.
So in both those model the parts are eternal but the mind/spirit is not.
Comment by Geoff J — 2/15/2007 @ 5:24 pm
Thanks for the links and all. I am going to try and do some more research on this, as I find it interesting that there seems to be a rather unsettled diversity of thought in modern Mormonism. It seems that BRM, Marion G. Romney, and the people who put together the CES manual are follows of the BY model. It seems that Daniel Ludlow, Richard G. Scott, Blake Ostler and Truman G. Madsen favor the Roberts Model. However, Daniel Ludlow may also be seen as an adherent to the Joseph model, which is also advocated by one Jonathon Stapley.
It seems that the Pratt model is not popular at all.
The more I read, the more I become agnostic on this, but I am totally fascinated by it, and am curious as to the implications. I will definitely check out Blake’s article. For now, it seems that the Brigham Model is based on either an intentional misreading or an inspired correction of Joseph’s claim that the “Intelligence of Spirit” is uncreated. (Just check out it’s handling in the CES POGP manual under Moses.)
Comment by Matt W. — 2/16/2007 @ 10:15 am
I don’t know about all those folks, Matt; but, Blake definitely espouses the Joseph-uncreated spirit model. Also, Brigham never called spirit element intelligence. So, the “intelligence of Spirit” being uncreated is actually a misreading of Brigham misreading Joseph.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/16/2007 @ 11:27 am
Cleon Skousen championed the Orson Pratt model in the last 40 years so it is not without supporters.
Comment by Geoff J — 2/16/2007 @ 11:48 am
I was going to go to the POGP Institute Manual and see if I had misread Young there, but the online reference is not the same as the physical copy I have at my house, which is interesting to me, since that manual is relatively new. (It came out when I was a new member, so it is younger than 9 years…) Maybe my physical copy contained “false doctrine”? I’ll see if I can write up it’s contents this evening for contrast with the current contents. That is where the Marion G. Romney Reference was.
My understanding of Blake’s view was from here, so I guess I’ll have to look about a bit and see if either Blake’s view has changed, Geoff was wrong about Blake’s view, or you’re wrong about Blake’s view. (No offense, just being honest.)
I refer to Scott because of the following quote:
(Richard G. Scott, “How to Live Well amid Increasing Evil,” Ensign, May 2004, 100)
And I am getting Truman Madsen from here.
Ludlow, who I said could either way, was in the ensign, with this article in 1976.
Sorry for not providing references the first time around.
Again, I’ll try to produce the POGP institute manual changes later to the understand of Moses 3:5, as I feel like they change the CES position from hard “Brigham Model” to a softer version, which is almost undecided.
Comment by Matt W. — 2/16/2007 @ 11:55 am
Wow! I thought this thread was dead. Great comments all, this is really sorting things out for me.
For now I tend to be mostly in the Roberts camp. I kind of agree with J that this model is an attempt to try to make both Joseph and Brigham right, and as such it does have some support doesn’t it?
Incidently, I have not read Roberts take on this either. What is the source of BH Roberts thoughts?
Comment by Eric Nielson — 2/16/2007 @ 12:12 pm
I definitely think that there is a softening (post McConkie). It would make sense that Madsen would follow Roberts as he is probably one of the two greatest experts on him. Moreover, he was Andrew Ehat’s adviser so is very familiar with all of Joseph’s source documents (and hence the need to deal with them). I could be misreading Blake, but I don’t think so.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/16/2007 @ 12:14 pm
Matt,
I think I got Robert’s view wrong in that comment. I misspoke and said Roberts viewed intelligences as synonymous with spirits and that clearly is not the case. So I got Ostler’s view right, but Roberts’ view wrong in that comment.
That is an interesting quote from Madsen though. It implies that there is a great deal more institutional support for the Roberts model than J is allowing for. What say you J?
Comment by Geoff J — 2/16/2007 @ 12:18 pm
BH Roberts’ early stuff is in the Seventies Course in Theology volumes (Priesthood manuals for the seventies quorums at the turn of the century). His ideas are most refined and best described in The Truth, the Way, and the Light, which was never published during his life, but has been published now by both Signature and BYU Studies (The Signature version being a little bit easier to read).
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/16/2007 @ 12:18 pm
What say you J?
I say that Madsen is not a Church authority. He is influential, but not institutional. I think the Scott quote is actually surprising and unexpected, but it is demonstrably anomalous.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/16/2007 @ 12:21 pm
Eric, a good (perhaps the best) Roberts example online is here.
J. Do you believe Man’s Spirit was always exactly in the shape of a man, as in Nephi’s Vison or the Brother of Jared’s pre-mortal conversation with Christ (or other numerous examples and quotes from General authoirities)?
I need to dig more into Joseph and the concept of “spiritual creation.”
Comment by Matt W. — 2/16/2007 @ 12:35 pm
J,
I am referring the the approval of the Roberts teaching by the First Presidency as outlined in that Madsen quote:
Madsen is basically saying the FP and 12 approved of the Roberts tripartite model — or at least discussed it and approved its publication. What say you to that?
Comment by Geoff J — 2/16/2007 @ 12:41 pm
I think that Christ appeared o the Brother of Jared in the form of a Man, yes. Now, some have thought that our spirits, pre-birth, look exactly like us on Earth. This is obviously very, very problematic. What about the illegitimate child? If the spirit were to have looked exactly like the individual in mortality, then the fornication was predestined (not an acceptable option). I think it is Parley Pratt who talks about the spirit having spirit organs, etc. I think that is fairly ridiculous as well. Our mortal body is set up for oxidative metabolism. There is no need for a heart if we aren’t breathing air. There is no need for liver or kidneys to clean the blood, etc.
That is a round about way of saying that the form of our spirit pre-birth doesn’t matter that much and has the capacity to change, it would seem (spirits of the dead are said to look like their mortal bodies).
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/16/2007 @ 12:42 pm
What say you to that?
I doubt that Madsen had access to the minutes of those minutes so he was probably going from Robert’s journal. Which is fine. I confess to not having read that specific article, but I am fairly certain that JFS was in the Brighamite camp.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/16/2007 @ 12:46 pm
From the footnote of that link:
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/16/2007 @ 12:53 pm
Don’t get me wrong J, you know I personally don’t buy the tripartite model either. I just point these things out to show that there has been tacit support of it at least a possibility at the highest levels of the church for more than a century.
Mostly what this whole thing shows is that the real answer is a mystery. One could insist on that “Joseph model” and make a strong case for it, but the quote you just gave pointed to the fact that Joseph F. Smith was highly skeptical and suspicious of the KFD to begin with. I suspect that the model one chooses in this debate has as much to do with personal tastes and gut feelings as anything else.
(I should note too that Roberts was very explicit in the start of that article that he was only expressing his opinions on the matter. The fact that the FP approved its publication indicates to me that the full truth of them matter remained among the unrevealed mysteries to them as well.)
Comment by Geoff J — 2/16/2007 @ 1:01 pm
The FP and Q12 approval is clearly stated at the beginning of the Roberts article I linked to (which is the article in question), if you’re really Interested. It says:
And J. regarding comment #48. That is definitely a good point. I guess for me, I see the likeness not as an exact likeness, but a differentiation of I am going to be a male human and so and so is going to be a tree…
Something more along the lines of
At any rate, a more amorpheus state does help (though not completely) counter the question of Omnipresence and the Holy Ghost, where the HG can not be Omnipresent due to being constrained to a spiritual body, and thus has no relative advantage over HF’s influence, and thus becomes a redundnat componant in the Godhead. but that is definitely off topic.
Comment by Matt W. — 2/16/2007 @ 1:05 pm
THe rest of the footnote J. sites says 🙂
Comment by Matt W. — 2/16/2007 @ 1:11 pm
Matt, it says they felt more comfortable with it. It is demonstrable that JFSII did not accept it, and I imagine the same goes for the others…but I’d have to do a case by case mining of their works. As it now stands, Roberts is fairly lonely (until you bring up some decent primary material).
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/16/2007 @ 1:14 pm
Working on it. In what I believe to be the unofficial “Hierarchy of Mormon Doctrine” the supporting persons in the quote are less relevent anyway, as they are all dead prophets or apostles. Richard G. Scott is the most interesting source so far for me, but I’d love to find a nice Hinckley Quote on the topic.
I guess the Roberts Model and the Joseph Model become less different based on what the considered differences are in an Intelligence and a Spirt. I will have to reread the Immortality of Man to glean what Roberts feels the difference is.
Another point to consider, I guess is that what can be argued as the biggest piece of Doctrinal Exposition of the last 10 years notes this about the pre-mortal state:
I guess my question is do you believe that Gender being eternal means you were always a male, or that it was defined at some point going forward eternally only (as families are eternally united going forward only.)
Comment by Matt W. — 2/16/2007 @ 1:29 pm
I hope I am not coming accross as “Bible Bashing” on this, I am just exploring the concept, not trying to win converts.
Comment by Matt W. — 2/16/2007 @ 1:32 pm
I think Roberts model exists because some people are married to the idea of a viviparous spirit birth. That is what this is all about.
Personally, I see duality in most of nature (think particle physics), so the idea of self existing intelligence having a duality isn’t that big of a deal.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/16/2007 @ 1:34 pm
J. you went over my head with the duality concept. Sorry, I got a C- in Physics in 1996 and haven’t looked back. I am guessing you are suggesting the concept of gender being backwards eternal seems fine to you.
I think the roberts model exists not due to vivaporous birth (which I reject) but again due to the two-tier creation needed explanation. (And I still need to read Ostler.)
Anyway, for modern support of the Roberts model, The byu website seems to endorse it with the LDSFAQ website here and here. What is interesting is that these are from the not cannonized EoM, which I thought had a quite different entry under “Intelligence” (I can’t find that entry online, however.)
Comment by Matt W. — 2/16/2007 @ 1:50 pm
Again, I appeal to Abraham 3:18:
This trumps Moses all day.
Here is the relevent EoM excerpt entry on Intelligence:
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/16/2007 @ 1:57 pm
oop, I found the EoM entry on Intelligence.
Comment by Matt W. — 2/16/2007 @ 1:57 pm
Sorry, double posted it…
Comment by Matt W. — 2/16/2007 @ 1:59 pm
Ok, I was mistaken about the hard copy CES POGP manual. For Abe 3:18, it says:
It appears that I confused Moses with Abe last night and confused Romney with Young. What I found surprising here is the Young quote used directly points to the return to the chaotic state. This quote seems to hold the “strong” Young Model to me.
The one for Moses holds what I termed the softer approach. It says:
Comment by Matt W. — 2/16/2007 @ 2:11 pm
It’s almost amusing that the CES manual puts those two opposing views (Joseph’s and Brigham’s) right next to each other in the manual. The Joseph quote clearly says the spirit of man is beginningless and that spirit is synonymous with intelligence. Then the Brigham quote comes back and says that only our parts are eternal.
I posted on this question a couple of times too here, here, and here (That was back when I was hoping I could make the Pratt model make sense — a task I have since given up on).
Comment by Geoff J — 2/16/2007 @ 2:26 pm
Those are some interesting quotes, Matt. A few comments:
The Joseph Smith quote is a massacre of the source accounts. That is not at all what he said.
The Romney one is the fascinating one because of the D&C 76:24 citation. That verse states that it is by Christ that we are begotten unto God. That is definitely adoptive language.
And Maxwell is saying spirits are eternal!
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/16/2007 @ 2:27 pm
Still reading all the comments, but I wanted to comment on this statement- “I find it interesting that there seems to be a rather unsettled diversity of thought in modern Mormonism.”
Regarding what GA’s have said, one BYU professor says “You can have it all, or you can have it consistant, but you can’t have both.” 🙂
Comment by Ben — 2/16/2007 @ 2:38 pm
Geoff, I think it is a deliberate misuse of the Joseph Smith statement, playing on the idead that only the “Intelligence of Spirit” is Eternal, then using the Romeny quote to justify what is meant by intelligence in this one single instance, even though it would not then agree with the rest of the KFD in context. I am somewhat disappointed in this useage, and perhaps that is why my earlier response, when I thought it had been removed, was somewhat relieved.
J. I can’t speak to the source accounts until I get home, but at any rate, it is definitely a prime example of “selective quoting.”
The more I go over the Romney Quote, the more I want to see it’s original context to see if he truly is espousing the Young Model or if he is acutally in the Roberts camp. It is impossible to tell from the quote. (Especially considering the use of the JS quote)
And Maxwell is saying “We don’t understand!” by my reading.
Ben, my point was more that I don’t believe there is any sort of general consistant LDS perception of this concept. The More I play with evidence, the more the only satisfying answer becomes exactly what I read Maxwell as saying above.
Comment by Matt W. — 2/16/2007 @ 2:53 pm
Matt, the general rule for people of that time (and I think generally) is that intelligence (singular) = spirit element.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/16/2007 @ 3:10 pm
Ok, I have been searching boap.org for references in JS for different ideas referent to the pre-mortal spiritual birth, and am not finding much in his preachings in the nature of a two tier creation. I did want to give you these snippets regarding the eternal nature of the spirit, as they might add to the flesh of your Joseph Model. Here they are chronologically.
– Willard Richards Pocket Companion, prior to Aug 8, 1839
–
Matthew L. Davis, correspondent for the New York Enquirer, Feb. 5, 1840
–
William Clayton’s Private Book, January 5, 1841
–
McIntire Minute Book, March 28, 1841
And , of course, Abraham 3:18, the King Follet Discourse and the Sermon in the Grove.
I won’t get into quotes from those, as I feel they are relatively well-known and already covered.
Have a good weekend.
Comment by Matt W. — 2/16/2007 @ 5:27 pm
Yep, Joseph was fairly consistent on the matter. Cheers, and have a good weekend as well.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/16/2007 @ 5:42 pm
This is getting to be a long post, so I hope I’m not missing these points earlier.
1st, Roberts didn’t coin a term, as the EoM entry points out. He is interpreting Abraham 3 to some extent, but the term comes from there.
2nd, on creation and evil, it seems to me that the only requirement is that at some point God gave us radical choice, choice that did n’t depend on either him or our physical make up. That is, if we really believe in agency, then we are saying there is something beyond deterministic elements, either divine or physical, that allows choice. We decide what we want, so things like desire are also radically divided from any completely determining consequences, however those consequences may incline us to choose. If we believe this, then God is not responsible for evil, he is simply dedicated to allowing for beings other than himself that have choice. Such a decision makes sense, since the only way for God to have meaning in his own life, it would seem to me is to allow for other beings who have the same agency he has. In his willingness to divide his power, he gives purpose to existence. So the probelm of evil looks much like it does in this world, God is responsible for evil only to the extent that he allows it in order to allow purposefulness through choice.
3rd, the idea of spirit birth seems me to have to be in some way a literal fatherhood, though what it is like could be in doubt. I just have too much difficulty accepting that the root source for a metaphor could be so removed from its usefulness. That is, what does adoption mean without actual parentage. It becomes meaningless. Adoption becomes the real metaphor.
Finally, I still think that semantics is tricky here. There seems to have been some time at which we became our father’s children. We may not know what form the existence before that moment took, but at some point we did become his children, and there was something before that moment. What I see happening is that we are confating the search for terminology with the dfining of the form of that state of existence. Since both the terminology and the ideas on that state will tend to slide subtly, I think nailing this down will always be a trick, perhaps even with new revelation on the matter.
Comment by Steve H — 2/19/2007 @ 3:22 am
I had a dream where I was in complete and total dispare that my life, even the very marrow of my bones were being pressed out of my bones. I was just at the point where I was to be sucked into a black hole of space; where no light can excape and where the impression came upon me that the very atoms of my spirit would pulled apart, down to there most basic elements and spread evenly throught out all of God’s creations to be reconsuted. Just then I cryed out : “Lord God if there is any good that has come of this being let all it go to my father that he may prosper.” For 3 nights I could not sleep and to say the least I have been profoundly changed and will never be the same. Preach nothing but repentance into this generation for your very existance depends on it.
Comment by peter — 2/19/2007 @ 6:19 am
Steve, I appreciate the comment. First, I agree with you that the details of our transformation from a being having no relationship with God to having a relationship with him could entail many different changes, none of which are clear from our mortal perspective. That said, it sounds like you are at least taking the position that we existed before that relationship began (contra the spirit creationism that is dominant in the 19th and 20th century discourse).
Roberts did indeed coin the term “intelligencies,” which would be the plural of intelligency, which I don’t think he ever used. I think he pretty much gave up on the term latter in life though.
It is true that there are ex nihilo believing Christians that believe in robust free will. They adopt an argument similar to what you said, namely that there is backwards causality. Personally I think that it is a very weak position.
As to the usefulness of the metaphor, it is quite certain that the metaphor is based on our mortal experience. It wouldn’t make sense to use a metaphor that we wouldn’t understand. Consequently, Jesus is the Only Begotten Son. Now there are some Mormons that think that is indicative of a literal sireship, I think that is over literalization of the metaphor. In any case, Joseph is remarkably consistent on the idea that spirits can not be created, so whatever spirit birth is, it cannot be analogous to physical creation, or Joseph is greatly mistaken.
As to your last point, I agree, though I don’t have a handle as well as you do on the ramifications of linguistic shift.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/19/2007 @ 12:34 pm
Would not this transformation be enough to set up some form of tripartite existance?
Comment by Matt W. — 2/19/2007 @ 3:55 pm
Well, Matt, tripartite existence was invented to harmonize eternal existence with spirit creationism. If spirits are not created, then there is nothing to harmonize and consequently, no tripartite existence.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/19/2007 @ 4:04 pm
fair enough, It just seems that if the change is one from “spirit intelligence” to “spirit body” or “spirit child” that a change in state has occurred, even if the spirit (or mind or will or intelligence) has always existed.
Comment by Matt W. — 2/20/2007 @ 12:33 am
The problem I see with that is that it is completely anachronistic. “Spirit intelligence” doesn’t occur until the twentieth century really. I think you are trying to do what Roberts did in trying to divorce mind from spirit. Either the spirit is eternal or it isn’t.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/20/2007 @ 12:43 am
I don’t really want to get bogged down arguing the rightness or wrongness of the terminology.
I am having a good time learning about the different points of views, and how they have been used overtime.
If you haven’t checked it out
The Development of the Doctrine of Preexistence, 1830-1844 by Charles R. Harrell Fn, BYU Studies, vol. 28 (1988), Number 2 – Spring 1988.
Was really good. In Summary, it notes that Joseph developed the ideas of pre-existant spirit element, a pre-mortal social organization of beginingless spirits, and possibly the idea of literal begetting, though I think it’s arguement here is fairly weak. If you have Gospel Link, check it out and let me know if you agree.
Also a few more quotes from GAs on their point of view.
(Boyd K. Packer, Our Father’s Plan [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1984], 14 – 15.)
(Bruce C. Hafen and Marie K. Hafen, The Belonging: The Atonement and Relationships with God and Family Heart [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1994], 58.)
Technically, this may have been prior to Elder Hafen beingcalled as a seventy. I’ll look it up later.
I really want to again say I am not trying to make an appeal to authority here, but am just enjoying examining the varied opinions of the GAs.
Comment by Matt W. — 2/20/2007 @ 1:37 am
We had a discussion on that article a while back. You can download the entire article here or view it page by page here. I think that while his chronology is good, his analysis is weak and sometimes quite contorted. Projection contemporary spirit elementalism onto section 93 is totally anachronistic…and the spirit creationism is just plain wishful thinking.
Don’t worry about bringing up more quotes. I hope you are interpreting my comments correctly as well. I concede that there are many authorities that believe in some of the post-Joseph ideas. It is just very important to be clear about semantics in this discussion or things get incoherent quickly.
As to the Packer quote, I am a bit surprised considering that he was such good friends with McConkie. That said, that is one of the crappiest uses of scriptural support (i.e., D&C 77:2, though not to be beaten by the use of 76:24 above). Perhaps in the post-McConkie Church folks are less reticent to completely dismiss Joseph’s words and are consequently migrating toward a tripartite resolution.
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/20/2007 @ 12:34 pm
I felt the articles weakest point was when it noted that JS was never recorded as having taught vivaporous spirit birth, but that Elder Pratt started teaching it around the Time of his death, and that he wouldn’t have invented such a concept himself. This after noting in the previous section that both O. Pratt and P. Pratt developed theories based on the concept of spirit matter previosly that did not seem to accord with Joseph’s understanding.
I still have not gotten to Ostler, sadly…
Comment by Matt W. — 2/20/2007 @ 3:55 pm
J,
I’m surprised at your vehemence, calling Packer’s scriptural reading “crappy” and saying he “completely dismiss(es) Joseph’s words–a bit of a strong condemnation. I think it is very possible to believe in a “clothing” in spirit, while admitting that an autonomous self existed before this clothing, which, it seems to me, is tripartite in a way, but still takes in to account Joseph’s words. Thsi is where semantics, for me becomes very important. We don’t know that Joseph didn’t conflate (not necessarily without reason, since they do both connote an essential self, especially given the use of the words in religious and secular discourse on selfhood in his times) the terms spirit and intelligence. If this is the case, then there would be no problem when he says that spirit has always existed interpreting that to mean that we have always had an essential self, whatever form that self took. I would think that Packer actually is trying to respect this in Joseph when he uses the metaphor of clothing in the spirit. It certainly doesn’t imply a spritual atomostic view of our existence prior to entering our first estate. Nor does it imply spiritual creationism as being ex-nihilo or organization from non-spirit matter. As for people tending towards tripartate theories, I think the average memeber, including many of us here in this forum, are actually feeling towards what the scriptural record will bear, and don’t feel a real attachment to any particular one of these theories. It’s more a matter of trying to imagine what our existence might have been like before the state in which we encountered the councils/war etc. that we know preceded this life.
As for your explanation of fatherhood, I’m not sure that I buy into your explanation–that he calls himself the father because we’ll understand that given our relationship to fathers on earth. It seems to me that the two have been connected from the beginning of the earth, and it would be odd to establish a structure on earth and call it by the same name as a heavenly relationship if the two relationships weren’t alike in some essential ways. It seems to me it would be obscuritanist on the part of God. What is essential to Fatherhood, of course, is the difficulty at hand, but it seems that there is an implied relationship that comes from creation without complete control that is quite complicated. So I think that at least we have to see ourselves as having been actuated in some way that wasn’t possible beforehand, that we were significantly changed in ways that changed our state of existence by the agency of God. that this function implies sexual reproduction–I’m not sure–if what you mean is sex as we know it now, though I do think that both genders are neccessary to whatever process is involved. I do agree that an insistence on sexuality here has been too much emphasized, esp. in the case you mention.
Comment by Steve H — 2/20/2007 @ 8:51 pm
That was fair, Steve. To be sure Packer’s ideas aren’t crappy. I felt that the scripture citation was irrelevant to the sentence it was attached…even that isn’t “crappy.” I’m actually fairly open to Spirit creationism among the Saints (it has been preached now for 150 years) and in any Church setting my only comment to such a supporting statement would likely be, “many great individuals have disagreed about the nature of our eternal existence and there is a wide variety of opinion on the matter.”
In this conversation, I do think it is fair to analyze the prevailing models. I concede that any details on the matter will be speculative and/or viewed through dark glass. That said, I think that the history of ideas is important and does lend support for the likelihood of said idea to be true or not. I am also for grass roots ideas and traditions, it is part of what makes being Mormon wonderful.
If a metaphorical reading isn’t appropriate for the Fatherhood of God, I find it hard not to extend our views of corporeal reproduction on the eternities. Say God did make our spirits appear from chaos with a snap of his finger…is this any more “fatherlike” than nurturing an adoptive co-eternal being from its most primitive existence?
It would also seem that there is a fair amount of support for non-creative parent relationships in Mormon thought:
1) Christ becomes our Father and we become his seed (e.g., Mosiah 5:7)
2) Children of God as hiers, e.g.:
Comment by J. Stapley — 2/20/2007 @ 9:49 pm
For the record, I believe the view of Joseph Smith that spirits and intelligences are one and the same is best supported. It is the best reading of the Book of Abraham 3:19-21 in my view. It is also the most defensible view in terms of logic and the problem of evil it seems to me. Indeed, I believe that without Joseph Smith’s statements, no one else would have even glimpses. Since it seems that everyone else is just trying to understand what he taught, we ought to stick with what he taught.
I remain open to the B.H. Roberts’ view. If it could be shown to be based on revelation rather than cultural overbelief and the rail-road engine without brakes effect, then I could accept it. However, it has no scriptural support. Poetry even by Eliza Snow doesn’t make it so. The earlier poem of Phelps is ambiguous at least. Church statements without revelation may express wisdom of good and even at times inspired men, but it isn’t scripture and I see no reason to believe that they know anything more than the rest of us without a revelation.
Comment by Blake — 3/3/2007 @ 2:19 pm
Thanks for stopping by, Blake. I am pretty much in agreement.
Comment by J. Stapley — 3/3/2007 @ 2:42 pm
blake, did you just reject HM here? I am a little confused by the Poems you reference?
Comment by Matt W. — 3/3/2007 @ 3:41 pm
Sorry Matt for the vague reference. The Roberts’ view assumes a mother in heaven and spiritial birth of the spirit at some time. I was referring to the Poem published in Dec. 1844 regarding a mother in heaven and the poem by Snow about the same doctrine. As I see it, if spirits are eternal and uncreated, there was not a time that they were birthed by a mother in heaven. That is a different topic though.
Comment by Blake — 3/3/2007 @ 5:20 pm
Thank you all for these insightful comments.
I am glad to find others that have come to realize the false doctrine of HM (ie our spirits being born of heavenly mother in likeness of our bodies being born of earthly mothers – ie viviparous birth). I came to this realization some years ago and have found it difficult to find others in the Church of similar thoughts.
I have just recently discovered these blog forums and I hope to engage in these blog discussions more often.
Thanks and God Bless
Comment by Jothan — 5/22/2007 @ 2:48 pm
Jothan, I wish you well. I think that we can all have our own perspectives on such a matter, but I would definitely steer clear of such a loaded term as “false doctrine.” Many good saints have disagreed on the matter.
Comment by J. Stapley — 5/22/2007 @ 10:39 pm
J,
I suppose you are right. “False doctrine” might be too strong a term.
I should probably disclose more of my thinking on the matter.
Like you, I give primacy to the teachings and revelations of Joseph Smith over the latter teachings of prophets, apostles or GAs without spirit confirmed revelation.
I am open to the idea of HM in the respects that we are adopted in some way possibly a covenant of sorts (First Estate) rather than viviparously born of her.
After all Jesus Christ is “The Only Begotten” of the Father and it would imply a Mother as well. I do not mean He is the Only Begotten because of His condescending reincarnate mortal birth through the virgin Mary which I have been taught in the church. But rather that as the scriptures say that he is the Only Begotten from before the foundations of the worlds.
I would like to see a blog post about how Jesus is the Only Begotten and the Firstborn. I tend to see “Firstborn” more as a title of rights rather than place in line in the birthing process.
Anyway, I have been impresed with many comments on various blogs by you, Geoff J, Mark Butler, Kevin Barney and others. I am a faithful LDS of similars thoughts and research. Being new here I seem to have missed out on a lot of interesting discussions. I might ressurect a few as I read through them.
Thanks and God Bless
Comment by Jothan — 5/23/2007 @ 3:16 pm
Could you clarify this? Was Joseph explicit in saying that the eternal mind = intelligence = spirit? I can definitely see how he didn’t explicitly promote a tripartite view, but is there a “softer” version of tripartitism that would be consistent with Joseph? I guess my real question is, did Joseph see any difference between a mind/intelligence/spirit before its spirit birth and after, and what was that difference? Some new ability?
Comment by BrianJ — 10/9/2008 @ 1:06 am
BrianJ: There’s not a lot of evidence that Joseph ever used the term “Spirit Birth” or set up such an instance as a dividing line in existence…
Comment by Matt W. — 10/9/2008 @ 8:33 am
BrianJ, Matt is correct. Joseph didn’t teach “spirit birth.” What he did teach (and revealed in Abraham) was that spirits were without beginning and that “God never had power to create the spirit of man.”
Comment by J. Stapley — 10/9/2008 @ 9:26 am
What did Joseph call the act that made us children of God? I’m sorry; I’m still trying to catch up with the terminology and keep it all separate. If we are children of God (which Joseph did teach?) then how did we become such if we always existed in a spiritual state that God didn’t change? I can’t see how Joseph didn’t see some kind of division.
Comment by BrianJ — 10/9/2008 @ 1:33 pm
I am going to try and dig into this for you a bit more, as I am curious.
Here is where I will look.
As an interesting stating point:
Joseph did teach:
-Letter of Willard Richards to Brigham Young Quoting Joseph Smith
July 16, 1843
Comment by Matt W. — 10/9/2008 @ 5:00 pm
Keep in mind I am not in the vivaporous spirit birth group.
Comment by Matt W. — 10/9/2008 @ 5:00 pm
Too bad, I heard the classes really help during labor.
(sorry, my mom taught birthing classes when I was growing up.)
Comment by BrianJ — 10/9/2008 @ 7:24 pm
I think it is fairly important to note that Joseph didn’t explicitly teach unconditional childhood of God. He typically couched the parent-child relationship as something conditional, where if we did not merit it, we are bastards.
Matt, I’m currently writing a paper with Sam on Adoption, and I read that excerpt to be describing the process of becoming heirs of God (as described in the previous part of the excerpt).
Comment by J. Stapley — 10/9/2008 @ 8:08 pm
I am looking forward to the article on adoption. As for this quote, I haven’t drawn any conclusions, it’s just that it’s the closest I’ve ever scene to a spirit birth quote associated with JS.
Comment by matt w. — 10/9/2008 @ 8:47 pm
It is the only proof-text I have seen for people arguing that Joseph taught spirit birth.
Comment by J. Stapley — 10/9/2008 @ 9:36 pm
To be fair while Joseph didn’t teach a spirit birth it seems hard to assert that he taught our spirits were “always complete” and didn’t undergo serious evolution or addition akin to how our spirit picked up a body. I think that the best we can say is that Joseph was pretty vague on the nature of spirit and spiritual evolution.
Comment by Clark — 10/13/2008 @ 10:58 pm
#98: Not just Joseph Smith. Jesus Christ did not teach unconditional childhood of God either. See John 8:44 et seq.
#99: I don’t think the KFD is exactly vague on the self-existence of individuals. Joseph Smith could hardly have said anything more fundamental on the topic.
The best case for a tripartite model of sorts does not rely on vivaparous spirit birth at all, but rather on the reconciliation of eternal personal identity with some sort of spirit matter. If Joseph Smith is right about eternal personal identity, and there is such a thing as spirit matter, then Orson Pratt and and B.H. Roberts provide the only two alternatives. VSB is a side issue.
For that reason, I lean towards a tripartite model despite rejecting VSB in favor of adoptionism.
Comment by Mark D. — 10/14/2008 @ 4:13 am
Mark, the detraction from Pratt and Roberts that I see are that Roberts argues for an ontological state that is not extant in the revelations or sermons of Joseph and what Pratt argued wasn’t an eternal identity.
I just don’t see adoptive spirit birth as being a tripartite existence.
Comment by J. Stapley — 10/14/2008 @ 9:20 am
101: On the contrary, both “spirit matter” and eternal “intelligences” are referred to in the scriptures. Whether they are ontologically distinct is not a question that the scriptures address, but it is certainly a proposition that the scriptures imply.
The idea of spirit “matter” that is more “fine or pure” is meaningless unless spirit bodies are composed of fine particles of some sort. Likewise, the idea of eternal intelligences is meaningless unless personal identity is rooted in a distinguishable non-composite entity.
So what are the alternatives:
1. Every particle of spirit matter is a proto-individual.
2. Individuals are ontologically distinct entities from the components of spirit matter.
3. Discard the idea that personal identity is eternal.
4. Discard the proposition that spirits have bodies
5. Adopt the idea that spirit bodies are non-composite, non-particulate, and ontologically indistinguishable from personal identity.
Your position seems to require either (4) or (5). So which is it, do spirits not have bodies, or are spirit bodies non-material, non-composite, and ontologically unitary?
Comment by Mark D. — 10/14/2008 @ 12:46 pm
I think we don’t have enough information to say much about the materiality of spirits. All we know is that they are; but what that means isn’t particularly evident. That means that your 1 and 2 are baseless (unless you take a Orson Pratt or Brigham Young expansion). If we are to take Joseph Smith’s teachings as normative, then we also have to take the well attributed teaching in the KFD that “God never did have the power to create the spirit of man” and that the spirit and mind of man is eternal. Abraham shows that “spirit” and “intelligence” are the same thing and eternal, which usage was consistent with Joseph Smith. I consequently reject 3. I think Parley Pratt’s exposition on spirit bodies is fanciful at best; really, we don’t have any idea what it means that spirits have a material body. They are not material in any way that is consistent with any usage of the term. That said, I believe it is true; especially in the sense (which I think Joseph was getting at) that if something exists it can’t not exist (i.e., it can’t be immaterial). So 4 is out. 5 assumes that we can adequately show the nature of that spirit body, which I don’t think we can; however the point about ontology and identity is, I believe, consistent with Joseph’s teachings.
Comment by J. Stapley — 10/14/2008 @ 2:25 pm
My point is that if you reject (1)-(4) then (5) is a logical necessity. Either spirits have parts or they don’t. (1),(2),(3) are variations on the proposition that spirits have parts. (4) and (5) are variations on the proposition that spirits do not have parts, or the parts really aren’t “parts”.
One can say that the question is inconclusive of course, but to the degree we can say *anything* on the subject at all, it has a bearing on one of these five possibilities. So if you reject (4), then you are logically bound to either accept (5) or admit there is a possibility that one of the other options is correct. They are not independent questions.
Comment by Mark D. — 10/14/2008 @ 3:07 pm
So if you lean towards (5), the question that follows is “If spirits have bodies, and are ontologically unitary (no parts), what if anything constrains (human) spirits to have two eyes and ten fingers? Platonic forms? personal preference?
Comment by Mark D. — 10/14/2008 @ 3:22 pm
I don’t think that human spirits are constrained to a specific form; and I think there is significant evidence for this. We know that the spirit of Jesus Christ appeared in a specific form in Ether. However, I am unaware that anyone would suggest that their premortal spirit looks like their mortal body. This would require a measure of predetermination that is, I believe, unacceptable to Mormonism. Consider, for example the case of the child born out of wedlock. So if we believe that post-mortal spirits look different than premortal spirits, we have already accepted the malleability of spirit form.
Comment by J. Stapley — 10/14/2008 @ 3:55 pm
As usual, I’m late to all the important discussions. But I just have to say that I’m so glad that I’ve been able to read through all the comments and see all the different ideas through time as I try to work out my own understanding on this. Excellent, excellent strand here.
Comment by Clean Cut — 7/13/2009 @ 6:49 pm
Cheers!
Comment by J. Stapley — 7/13/2009 @ 9:24 pm
Still the best post ever. J., If you see this, did that article on Adoption ever get published?
Comment by Matt W. — 1/8/2010 @ 7:55 pm
Thanks Matt, I appreciate it. The adoption paper is fairly well done. It will be published as either one or two articles, co-authored with Sam Brown. In the interim, Sam, Kathleen Flake and I will each be presenting on ritual adoption in a session at the forthcoming MHA in Independence.
On my long list of things to do, is a paper on the development of premortal doctrine or spirit birth or something.
Comment by J. Stapley — 1/8/2010 @ 10:35 pm
Yeah, I was hoping to do something similar for SMPT, but never got past titling it “When Souls didn’t have wings”.
Comment by Matt W. — 1/8/2010 @ 10:51 pm
Nice!
Comment by J. Stapley — 1/8/2010 @ 10:53 pm