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	<title>Comments on: Circumcision Envy</title>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde</title>
		<link>http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/comment-page-2/#comment-43064</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2005 02:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/#comment-43064</guid>
		<description>Apropos of this discussion (if it can be called that), I saw &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.php?feed=Science&amp;article=UPI-1-20050705-20182400-bc-safrica-circumcision.xml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this new study&lt;/a&gt; recently, suggesting that circumcision drastically reduces the risk of men contracting HIV in unprotected heterosexual sex. Of course, we all hope that our sons are never in situations where they could contract HIV in the first place, but still...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apropos of this discussion (if it can be called that), I saw <a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.php?feed=Science&amp;article=UPI-1-20050705-20182400-bc-safrica-circumcision.xml" rel="nofollow">this new study</a> recently, suggesting that circumcision drastically reduces the risk of men contracting HIV in unprotected heterosexual sex. Of course, we all hope that our sons are never in situations where they could contract HIV in the first place, but still&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: S. Hancock</title>
		<link>http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/comment-page-2/#comment-43063</link>
		<dc:creator>S. Hancock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/#comment-43063</guid>
		<description>Very interesting how these two threads are growing together. Every time I start to lean one way, I lean the other. I had just gotten to thinking maybe this wasn&#039;t such an attempt not to be heathens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting how these two threads are growing together. Every time I start to lean one way, I lean the other. I had just gotten to thinking maybe this wasn&#8217;t such an attempt not to be heathens.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa B.</title>
		<link>http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/comment-page-2/#comment-43062</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Wow, even in light of the Book of Mormon&#039;s strongly anti-circ stance!  Keep in mind this is at the same time that many thought that animal sacrifice would also be re-instituted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, even in light of the Book of Mormon&#8217;s strongly anti-circ stance!  Keep in mind this is at the same time that many thought that animal sacrifice would also be re-instituted.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/comment-page-2/#comment-43061</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/#comment-43061</guid>
		<description>I came across an interesting detail regarding circumcision in pioneer Utah recently, and I thought I&#039;d share it:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Another of [John] Lyon&#039;s tasks [as superintendent of the Endowment House] was to arrange for a doctor to be present at the Endowment House, where parents brought their children to be circumcised when eight days old. Early Church leaders felt that they were truly reestablishing Israel and so had to restore all known ordinances; the substitute temple was a logical place to perform the covenant ceremony of circumcision (T. Edgar Lyon, Interview, 1975). Lyon worked under the direction of Heber C. Kimball, the chief administrator of the House.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

T. Edgar Lyon, Jr., John Lyon, Life of a Pioneer Poet (Provo, UT:  Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1989), p. 229.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I came across an interesting detail regarding circumcision in pioneer Utah recently, and I thought I&#8217;d share it:</p>
<blockquote><p>Another of [John] Lyon&#8217;s tasks [as superintendent of the Endowment House] was to arrange for a doctor to be present at the Endowment House, where parents brought their children to be circumcised when eight days old. Early Church leaders felt that they were truly reestablishing Israel and so had to restore all known ordinances; the substitute temple was a logical place to perform the covenant ceremony of circumcision (T. Edgar Lyon, Interview, 1975). Lyon worked under the direction of Heber C. Kimball, the chief administrator of the House.</p></blockquote>
<p>T. Edgar Lyon, Jr., John Lyon, Life of a Pioneer Poet (Provo, UT:  Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1989), p. 229.</p>
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		<title>By: TMI guy</title>
		<link>http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/comment-page-2/#comment-43060</link>
		<dc:creator>TMI guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/#comment-43060</guid>
		<description>Well, Rosa, thanks for letting me know that I&#039;m spoiled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Rosa, thanks for letting me know that I&#8217;m spoiled.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosa</title>
		<link>http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/comment-page-2/#comment-43059</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:23:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The scripture is in the Book of Mormon:

Moro. 8: 8

&quot;Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.&quot;


Also, the leaders of the LDS church have made it clear that it is not considered respectful to mark the body with piercings or tattoos, etc. It seems that if an adult even piercing their own body is considered disrespectful, then how much more so would that principle apply to actually cutting a part of someone elses body all the way off for non medically indicated reasons .


You might also want to refer to this article &lt;a href=&quot;http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$xhitlist_q=jerusalem%20council%20circumcision$xhitlist_x=Simple$xhitlist_s=relevance-weight$xhitlist_d=Magazines/ensign$xhitlist_hc=%5BXML%5D%5Bkwic%2C0%5D$xhitlist_xsl=xhitlist.xsl$xhitlist_vpc=first$xhitlist_sel=title%3Bpath%3Bcontent-type%3Bhome-title%3Bhit-context%3Bfield%3Azr%3Bfield%3ARef&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;:



Read D&amp;C 74.

Some LDS are hesitant to think circumcision is a bad idea because they think while maybe it&#039;s not required, their leaders would warn them not to do it if it was a bad idea. That article clears that up:

&quot;In like manner today, there may be questions on which the doctrinal foundation is clear but on which tradition or custom are so strong that the Brethren are impressed not to take a firmer stand, trusting, as did Church leaders in New Testament times, that if the basic revealed principles are known, the Holy Ghost will eventually lead the adherents to forsake their tradition, or academic popularity, or peer pressure in favor of the word of God.&quot;

Why would anyone want to spoil a human child that God created perfect?

Oh and cutting a child&#039;s (non-retractable) foreskin off because you don&#039;t want to clean up the outside of his p-- when he has a stomach bug is just beyond incompetent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The scripture is in the Book of Mormon:</p>
<p>Moro. 8: 8</p>
<p>&#8220;Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.&#8221;</p>
<p>Also, the leaders of the LDS church have made it clear that it is not considered respectful to mark the body with piercings or tattoos, etc. It seems that if an adult even piercing their own body is considered disrespectful, then how much more so would that principle apply to actually cutting a part of someone elses body all the way off for non medically indicated reasons .</p>
<p>You might also want to refer to this article <a href="http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$xhitlist_q=jerusalem%20council%20circumcision$xhitlist_x=Simple$xhitlist_s=relevance-weight$xhitlist_d=Magazines/ensign$xhitlist_hc=%5BXML%5D%5Bkwic%2C0%5D$xhitlist_xsl=xhitlist.xsl$xhitlist_vpc=first$xhitlist_sel=title%3Bpath%3Bcontent-type%3Bhome-title%3Bhit-context%3Bfield%3Azr%3Bfield%3ARef">here</a>:</p>
<p>Read D&amp;C 74.</p>
<p>Some LDS are hesitant to think circumcision is a bad idea because they think while maybe it&#8217;s not required, their leaders would warn them not to do it if it was a bad idea. That article clears that up:</p>
<p>&#8220;In like manner today, there may be questions on which the doctrinal foundation is clear but on which tradition or custom are so strong that the Brethren are impressed not to take a firmer stand, trusting, as did Church leaders in New Testament times, that if the basic revealed principles are known, the Holy Ghost will eventually lead the adherents to forsake their tradition, or academic popularity, or peer pressure in favor of the word of God.&#8221;</p>
<p>Why would anyone want to spoil a human child that God created perfect?</p>
<p>Oh and cutting a child&#8217;s (non-retractable) foreskin off because you don&#8217;t want to clean up the outside of his p&#8211; when he has a stomach bug is just beyond incompetent.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/comment-page-2/#comment-43058</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I declare the horse official dead.  For that matter it is no longer recognizable.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I declare the horse official dead.  For that matter it is no longer recognizable.  <img src='http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: S. Hancock</title>
		<link>http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/comment-page-2/#comment-43057</link>
		<dc:creator>S. Hancock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:41:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/#comment-43057</guid>
		<description>Lisa,
I have a daughter, and she&#039;s had diarhea. Changing her isn&#039;t that difficult. In fat, it&#039;s not that much different than a regular diaper, since you have to make sure you clean her well anyway. With a boy, I can imagine it being much more of a chore.  Are Q-tips always involved? I know the foreskin can&#039;t be fully retracted when an intfant is born. It just sounds like a real difficulty for both parties, parent and child, as jns points out.
Also, as Chris points out earlier, the comparison implied in the term &quot;female circumcision&quot; seems unwarrented. It&#039;s like saying that because someone might be willing to have an earlobe removed they would be willing to cut off the ear as well.
As for the source validity thing, I think I&#039;ll post on that separately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lisa,<br />
I have a daughter, and she&#8217;s had diarhea. Changing her isn&#8217;t that difficult. In fat, it&#8217;s not that much different than a regular diaper, since you have to make sure you clean her well anyway. With a boy, I can imagine it being much more of a chore.  Are Q-tips always involved? I know the foreskin can&#8217;t be fully retracted when an intfant is born. It just sounds like a real difficulty for both parties, parent and child, as jns points out.<br />
Also, as Chris points out earlier, the comparison implied in the term &#8220;female circumcision&#8221; seems unwarrented. It&#8217;s like saying that because someone might be willing to have an earlobe removed they would be willing to cut off the ear as well.<br />
As for the source validity thing, I think I&#8217;ll post on that separately.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa B.</title>
		<link>http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/comment-page-2/#comment-43056</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/#comment-43056</guid>
		<description>Okay, pass me the club, Chris.

I think anti-Mormon material and anti-circ material are VASTLY different.  There is no national medical society worldwide that recommends routine neonatal circumcision because there is no evidence that there is any medical benefit INCLUDING &quot;cleanliness&quot;.  In fact, the foreskin serves to PROTECT from infection!  And yet risks of even small surgical procedures are well-known.  But many parents BELIEVE that they are doing this for their child&#039;s benefit (health or cleanliness).  That just ain&#039;t the facts!  Anti-mormon sources aren&#039;t even dealing in fact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, pass me the club, Chris.</p>
<p>I think anti-Mormon material and anti-circ material are VASTLY different.  There is no national medical society worldwide that recommends routine neonatal circumcision because there is no evidence that there is any medical benefit INCLUDING &#8220;cleanliness&#8221;.  In fact, the foreskin serves to PROTECT from infection!  And yet risks of even small surgical procedures are well-known.  But many parents BELIEVE that they are doing this for their child&#8217;s benefit (health or cleanliness).  That just ain&#8217;t the facts!  Anti-mormon sources aren&#8217;t even dealing in fact.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris S.</title>
		<link>http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/comment-page-2/#comment-43055</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:12:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/circumcision/#comment-43055</guid>
		<description>OK, so I&#039;m taking out the club and I&#039;m going to beat this poor dead horse one last time. SH, I have to disagree with you. I suppose that choosing political figures for the analogy was not the bast idea, as with them the truth is always elusive (it all depends on what the definition of &#039;is&#039; is). However, looking to a source dedicated to opposition of a subject will yield filtered information at best and half-truths and outright lies the rest of the time. It sounds terrifically open-minded to say it&#039;s good to &quot;review a variety of opinions,&quot; and when those opinions are at least reasonably objective, that&#039;s fine. But your judgement has to start even before you read an article. It is as necessary to validate your source as it is to validate the material. You wouldn&#039;t think of recommending an anti-Mormon website to a friend who wanted to learn more about the Church. Why? Because those behind it are intent on destroying their target. You could spend all day trying to validate their references, and in the end you wasted your time wading through tripe. To an undecided individual it is destructive. Even to someone with a testimony it is poison.  I hate to use the Church as an example, but it is one we all have in common and can appreciate.
As far as your references, they are fine. I think it&#039;s time to make glue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, so I&#8217;m taking out the club and I&#8217;m going to beat this poor dead horse one last time. SH, I have to disagree with you. I suppose that choosing political figures for the analogy was not the bast idea, as with them the truth is always elusive (it all depends on what the definition of &#8216;is&#8217; is). However, looking to a source dedicated to opposition of a subject will yield filtered information at best and half-truths and outright lies the rest of the time. It sounds terrifically open-minded to say it&#8217;s good to &#8220;review a variety of opinions,&#8221; and when those opinions are at least reasonably objective, that&#8217;s fine. But your judgement has to start even before you read an article. It is as necessary to validate your source as it is to validate the material. You wouldn&#8217;t think of recommending an anti-Mormon website to a friend who wanted to learn more about the Church. Why? Because those behind it are intent on destroying their target. You could spend all day trying to validate their references, and in the end you wasted your time wading through tripe. To an undecided individual it is destructive. Even to someone with a testimony it is poison.  I hate to use the Church as an example, but it is one we all have in common and can appreciate.<br />
As far as your references, they are fine. I think it&#8217;s time to make glue.</p>
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